One would think the Creator had a plan in mind when fashioning the human race. From my point of view there is no way to get around the fact that men and women connect on a different mental and spritual note of which gay couples immitate even to a point of taking more masculine or feminine roles. But I wanted to bring up the fact that there are birth defects so our design isn’t perfect but even with that fact in hindsight I find it hard to believe that we can be born gay and that its not a choice people make. I’m open minded enough to not persecute gays but I can’t say I understand or support their views. I’ve read that being gay could be a mental cop out to avoid the reproductive and social responsibilities of being men and women why else would they want an equitable existence. Or even why should we forget our sexuality and ignore the immorality of such a situation in short if it was ment to be that way then I think they would be able to reproduce. To me it gets no clearer than that.

These so called “ex-gays” may proclaim that they were once 100% homosexual, but the truth is…they were and are bisexual. As for my self, and I am now 46 years old, I have never remotely been attracted to a woman. However, a few years ago I married my best female friend in an effort to fit in. It was the most miserable few time of my life. I ruined a beautiful friendship while knowing all the time I was living a lie! When these ex-gays talk about how deep down they felt wrong or bad about the way they lived , for a completely gay man or woman, living the hetero life feels horrible wrong!! I know for a fact that I was born gay. And no…I was not molested as a child,I had a strong father figure growing up. Yet I can recall having “crushes” on other boys as far back as the second grade. So quite frankly…I don’t care what these guys have to say, because in my own heart I know who I am… and that is a GAY man! End of my story!!!!

I have to agree with the idea of bi-sexual, though I have no clue on the percentage.

If a man is able to be “on the down low”, that means he has sex with women. If you are a homosexual, my assumption is, as a man, you wouldn’t be able to take part in the act.

I know that this is not a popular or “politcally correct” thing to say, but here goes…I do not believe that people are born gay. I believe that all people, because of the fallen nature of man are born into sin and each of us have inate weaknesses or tendencies. It could be lying, stealing, sexual and so on. Because we are all born into sin and have this fallen nature, our weaknesses can be encouraged or discouraged by events that happen, our parents or by our choice as we get older. When people say that I have always been gay or I knew at a young age, that is true, just like you don’t have to teach a child to lie or steal. I know that a lot of you are going to get mad at me, but the bottom line is that sin is sin. My sin is no different than your sin. And we all need a loving Savior to forgive our sins. If you are homosexual it is by your choice. In all the testimonies of the people that came out of that lifestyle they basically say I CHOSE to come out of that lifestyle. God gave us all choices and we are responsible for the choices that we make. If you make the choice to live as a homsexual, that is your choice and you will be responsible for that choice and the consequences of that choice. Let me just say to any person that may be reading this and you say you are a homosexual /lesbian, I as a Christian do not hate you, to do so would be a sin. God loves you and according to His Word He hates sin no matter what it is. Don’t take my word for it read it for yourself.

To Peg,

You said:

“Think about it. Did you have to think long and hard about whether you would wish to have relationships with men instead of women? I sure did not.”

People that do not have these weaknesses do not have to think long and hard about homosexuality. Just as you do not have to think long and hard about whether or not you should steal or any other thing you see other people do and you can’t imagine why they would do that.

You said:

“And – why would so many people choose to face discrimination in the work place, with family, legal difficulties, etc., if all this were a mere choice?”

As I said before with our choices come resposibility of the consequences. For lack of a better example: A burglar does not choose to go to prison, but with the choice comes the resposibilty of the consequence. That goes not only for Homosexuals but all of us.

It becomes a problem when we make choices and expect everyone to agree and condone our choice. If a person that has chosen to live as a homosexual is at peace with their choice then so be it. However it does not change that it is a sin as any other sin and all sin has consequences.

What I see here is essentially the casual airing of social and ideological predudices, with only the weakest of anecdotal evidence to back up any claims. If you would like to approach an issue like this, here is an idea: why not acquaint yourself with a scientific study or two? Is the reason that you might not find the answers you want to hear?

Another idea–has it occurred to you that a primary reason that homosexuals have not endured a fraction of the persecution that black people on the whole have endured is that it is easy to hide homosexuality? And that most homosexuals, particularly black gay males (whose community is one of the most bigoted concerning this) choose to play “straight” (which often leads to the promiscuous and dangerous “DL” phenomenon). It is as easy to do that, by the way, as it is to claim oneself “cured” of homosexuality, by the way, and the social rewards are just as real. Trust me, if there were a “cure,” I would not have to pretend that I am a different person than who I actually am every day of my life.

The sort of bigotry, not only in the black community, but deeply ingrained in the hearts and minds of black gay men ourselves (that’s how pervasive it is) is what leads to DL–and this involves many more black men than you think (white men too, although not as prevalently). Does anyone really wonder why AIDS is growing so rapidly among black women? It is not because of homosexuality per se, but because of the disgusting, underground, locker room promiscuity to which black gay and bisexual men are driven by the predudices of the very community that should love and support them, whatever gender they find themselves attracted to.

One more thing. “If you are homosexual it is by your choice.” If you think this through, it is one of the most ridiculous things to say. Why would anyone choose to be considered “sinful” “dirty” “sick” or “deformed” (to use many of the characterizations from this very forum) when they could just as easily “choose” to live a normal, socially sanctioned way of life with some “curvacious” black woman? Do you remember the moment when you “chose” to be attracted to that woman, or did it just happen? If you wanted to, could you “choose” to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex? Its not how it works!

Matt,

Like what you just did in your entire comment. So please! You immediately cancel out my opinion without factually proving otherwise. And as far as refering to a scientific study to prove my point, would that even matter to you?

Do you remember the moment when you “chose†to be attracted to that woman, or did it just happen? If you wanted to, could you “choose†to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex? Its not how it works!

How it works is FORTUNATELY I had the type of upbringing where my manhood was encouraged–not forced upon me. I had men around me that were more than willing to answer any questions that I had about sex without making me feel ashamed of myself. This is what is lacking in our society. The results may not always be homosexuality for those who did not grow up in such an environment, but it does happen.

For those who don’t like to read, let me post this again:

(Please note: If you are going to take the easy route by automatically rejecting any of these testimonies as that I posted here as false or coerced, please indicate weather or not if you personally have gone through the programs mentioned in these articles.)

A man’s experience goes much further than any argument. So don’t reject the experience if you have never gone through it yourself.

Second part

The question that summarizes my case: If a person can be born gay (like one can be born black), why is there factual evidence to show gays becoming straight?

So again, if you cannot prove that the testimonies that I have posted are false, all you are doing is venting–not making your case.

I am gay, and was raised in quite the manner that you are describing to me. My brothers who grew up in the same house are all straight.

Duane, although I did not go through some sort of six-week straightness boot-camp (I suppose, the equivalent of a summer camp for fat kids?) I did go through a fairly extensive counciling program with my church when I began to realize that I was gay. While they never changed the way I felt about other men, they did encourage me to act more “macho,” to keep from acting on my impulses, all while my self-hatred for having the persistant thoughts I had was growing inside. And all this time, I called myself straight–all this time, by all outward appearances, I was straight. But inside, you see, I was not. You do not think that there is a chance that at least some of these cases to which you refer are of a similar nature?

I do not have time to quote any studies to refute the efficacy of the so-called “factual evidence” of these programs that supposedly “cure” homosexuality, as I have a class to teach soon, but it should not take too long for you to dig much material up (trying for a .edu address might be a step in the direction of legitimacy, if that’s truly what you are looking for).

Matt,

if you truly believe that you were born gay and have no question about it, then no one will have to prove anything to you. When it is all said and done, it is you and you alone (like all of us) that will live with your decisions and the

consequences.

No, I did not share these feelings immediately with my father (I did with only one of my brothers), because my father, like many people in our society, hated “faggots,” which was the term he used.

And yes, VB, you are right about nobody needing to prove anything to me. But neither should I be subject to the judgments of self-righteous ideologues who suggest that there is some need to change one’s sexual orientation in the first place, instead of trying to change the society that sees gayness as so terribly bad.

Also, the conversation here began among other things with the statement,

While the spirit of this comment is true (blacks AS blacks have endured more than homosexuals AS homosexuals, there are distinctions to be made. One, as I mentioned before, is that blackness cannot be hidden as can homosexuality. And the fact that homosexuality can be hidden does not solve the problem of homophobia within the black community–because nobody should have to keep a giant portion of their lives top secret and live in shame.

Another distinction has to do with the phrasing of the quote above. One might also have said “the movement for equality of women cannot be equated with the blood sweat and tears of blacks in this country.” The problem with both statements is that they assume that the movement for equality of blacks in this country is represented by straight black men (just take a look at how many sisters involved in the Black Power movement were so horribly mistreated by their “brothers”). To suggest that black women’s and black homosexuals’ concerns are secondary to the issues of black people as a whole, is to effectively erase them and co-opt the whole thing on behalf of straight black men. Sorry, but all black people are not straight (or male).

Sorry for the repeated rants on this discussion. . . I had my Wheaties this morning, along with perhaps a little too much coffee.

So, without trying to prove that anyone was lying in his/her testimonial on these websites, I would like to question the implicit assumption underneath all of this–that being gay is bad, and should be treated as a disorder that should be cured.

For those of you interested in the opinion of those who know a bit more than myself about all this, here is a link to the American Psychologic Association’s page on this topic.

Actually, this whole discussion started out as an opinion against the belief that being gay is like being black. This led to the main question of this post “Can a person be born gay?”. Weather or not homosexuality is wrong or not is up to you. Don’t think that I am going to rake you over the fires of hell for not believing as I believe. You, like I have opinions and beliefs. The whole purpose of this forum was to challange those beliefs–not disrespect anybody.

As far as the scientific studies go, there was also a study done that made the point that blacks were inferior to whites. Should we then refer to that simply because it is a “independent” study?

No, I prefer to hear from real people and their experiences. If you believe that you have found happiness in your life choices, then all I can do is take you at your word. I also have to do the same for individuals who also claim that they found happiness by completely leaving that lifestyle.

Matt, you sound like a good guy (not that I thought anything differently). Thanks for sharing your point of view. Hopefully this will not be the last time our paths will meet.

I’ve got to take care of some more pressing matters right now, so I may not return to this particular post until later this evening.

Here is the APA link I foolishly forgot to pastet in my last post:

http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm

Being gay is like being black for me, as a gay black man. It’s like Audre Lorde called herself a “a black feminist lesbian mother poet” because she acknowledged that it is impossible to seperate the many diverse aspects of who she is as a person. I am not gay one day and then black the next, or gay in one discussion, black in another, and black/male in the next. Just like you are not simply black, Duane, and must realize that you speak not exactly from a black perspective, not exactly from a black male perspective, but a black/straight/male perspective. I recommend looking up Lorde and also bell hooks for enlightening discussions of how (straight) black males have at tendency to claim ownership of the black cause, just like white, middle-class straight females co-opt women’s movements.

It’s not so much a matter of whether “being gay is like being black.” Being black and gay is like being. . .well, black and gay, just like being white and gay is not the same as being black and gay or asian and lesbian, or black, straight and female. Identity and discrimination are very complicated, and each of us experiences them a little bit differently.

No offenses meant or taken Duane. All in the name of a good discussion.

Wow, lots of posts on this. Duane, my perspective on you question, “If a person can be born gay (like one can be born black) why is there factual evidence to show gays becoming straight?”…

First, I think your question assumes that there are gay/straight categories that people fall neatly into. I think that it’s likely to be more of a continuum as one of the previous posters mentioned (there is research to support this as well). So if there is a continuum then it is most likely those towards the middle of that continuum who “become straight” rather than those at the extremes.

Secondly, I don’t think you can really equate the concept being black with being gay in this case. Race, in the way I believe you were referring to it, is a stricly biological feature (how black as person’s skin is) whereas sexual orientation is a behavior. Both are influenced by genetics but sexual orientation also has a heavy environmental component to it whereas race has next to none. While someone my have genetic traits for “gayness” it may or may not be behaviorally expressed due to the interaction with the environment. Those who became straight may have been those who were born gay and for whatever reason, the environment in which they were in “suppressed” the gentic inclination (which may not have been that strong to begin with depending on the individual).

It is clear to me that people “can” be born gay. The fact that two boys raised in the same household can have two very different sexual orientations is strong evidence for genetic influence in my book. I’ve seen this in two of my friends and one of your posters gives personal testimony to it. There is also scientic evidence for it.

Bottom line for me is even if it is possible for a gay person to become straight, it is unethical and franky ridiculous to suggest that gays should become straight like the rest of us (yes I am straight, and Duane, Im not saying that this is what you were saying). This is one of the reasons why both the American Psychological and American Psychiatric Assoications don’t support such treatments. Being gay is not a disease. Disease implies some kind of impairment or dysfunction. The only impairment gays might suffer are social in nature as a result of stigma and discrimination.

I’m not going to even touch the religious arguments on this…

I tried to post comments yesterday, once afer exe’s post and once after Mikes last’s post, but my comments never appeared. So, for what it’s worth, I posted it on my own blog.

Peg,

What you have stated before about the Bible is taken out of context. If you are really interested in what the Bible says, please read the WHOLE scriptures in order to get a clearer meaining. Somehow though I think that you have already decided on what you believe. So…to discuss this with you any longer would be a moot point.

No doubt many black slaves who were forced to come to USA were GAY… Of course people are born gay….

I think discrimination exists because we are conscious man now not robot do what you see people. Sure a lot of people don’t understand the conscious shift we have made in these past 2006 years but the shift has been made and its proven in the fact that we have disagreements we don’t always have to see things the same or even accept things we don’t understand just for the sake of appeasing people who live differently. BUT TO ME ONCE AGAIN IT GETS NO CLEARER THAN MAN HAVING AN OUTTIE AND WOMAN HAVING AN INNIE. Sorry I had to get basic but thats what we are overlooking the very basic basis of human nature.

Duane,

Thanks for your response. My response to some of your comments…

Most definitely. And their are plenty more scientists whose work has been used to make similar claims about Blacks (e.g. Rushton & Jensen). There will always be scientific evidence on both sides of any issue. Hardly ever will you find ALL the evidence in ONE direction. However, in this case most of the genetic and social scientific evidence AND personal accounts of gays seems to point to at least SOME genetic contribution to homosexuality.

That is an impossible challenge. Your original question of how it can be that a person is born gay when there is factual evidence to the contrary is much more answerable. Nobody can prove their personal accounts to be false without having in-depth knowledge of the individuals and their lives. At the same time their accounts do not make it true. Just as you say you must take the word of those who have become straight, you must also take the word of many more gays who say they have no choice in their sexual orientation. The accounts of the former do not negate the latter.

Im not sure what you think my “view of the world is” (maybe you werent referring to me personally?) but I think I was clear in spelling out how I think it is possible for a person to be born gay OR to switch to being straight. You will have to take my word that I am not and ideologue who is intractable in my beliefs. Im always open to being proven wrong.

Perhaps this is the wrong question to ask. Perhaps it might be more productive to consider why we would agonize over such a question anyway. What if we are not born gay? So what? What if we are? Then what? Then you either propose to “fix” us, or accept us? At least lets be clear on the stakes of our debate.