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I submit that the apposing POV also have Biblical bases. Not based on pride but on mercy, and humility:

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

While justice demands that they all be shipped as soon as they are found, the scripture allow for mercy. And I think there is a case for mercy given the circumstances. If it where me and I had to choose between feeding my family and breaking a law, I would say, it depends on the law. Killing somebody, a definitely No; Stealing, maybe; Hopping fence to find work, absolutely.

To the extent that they are a drain on American resources, it is only because they lack status. If they where given status, they could pay into the programs from which they benefit.

Lastly, Let’s face it. They DO contribute to the economy. If this where not true they would NOT be here. Most of the time they are not taking jobs from citizen, the places where they are, they employers would be forced to raise wages, giving citizens a chance to compete on a level playing field for those jobs. And all things being equal a citizen in most cases is more attractive than a migrant.

Taking all of these together The US can afford to be (and in my opinion should be) merciful, and still be within the bounds of scripture.

Thank you for your comments.

After reading the full context of the scripture you mentioned here, I see no relation to government or obeying authority. (Click here for the actual context)

When “Tookie” Williams was sentenced to be executed, many folks believed that the system should show “mercy” by reducing his sentence to life in prison. There were also numbers of people who believed that “mercy” should be demonstrated by setting him free altogether. Which is mercy?

I pose this question to you because the argument you have presented here leaves gaping holes for interpretation. What may be considered “mercy” to you may be considered injustice to someone else.

As this relates to the issue at hand, again no where in scripture will you find the Lord encouraging believers to break the natural laws of government for the purpose of spreading the gospel.

As far as just giving them “American status”, we have a process for that–its called LEGAL immigration. The worst thing that the illegal population could have done in recent years was to take to the streets of America to demand for status. Once a person decides to break the law, sorry but they have given up any rights to demand for anything. .

As far as mercy goes, not only do I refer you to the link in this post, but the numerous times America has aided South American countries and still they remain mostly corrupt.

Lastly let me say this (because I meant to include this in the post). Like you mentioned, if I was forced to make a decision to live in poverty or jump the fence, like many others I would probably jump the fence. Wanna know why? Because as long as it is known that the American government is not only going to look the other way, but make a way for me to get “free” healthcare, “free” education, and “free” housing, why not (I would be foolish not to do it)? IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT!!! I committed a wrong and deserve every right to be punished for it. Oh sure, I will be the first to tell you what I did was wrong and that the US has every right to kick me out. But the one thing I will not do is to try to make the sorry case that America has the moral obligation to take care of me knowing full well that it is my own government that needs fixing. If America was to tighten its borders, it would force these individuals to organize and do something to fix the government in their own nation (they certainly showed their ability to organize back in May of last year). By leaving our borders open, we rob them of that opportunity creating a dependent class.

Duane,

Everything you said is true. But it doesn’t negate my argument. Mercy by definition is injustice as far as it is NOT justice.

After reading the full context of the scripture you mentioned here, I see no relation to government or obeying authority.

That is because it is not. It is about the duty of God’s people. And that is both justice AND mercy.

Your Tookie analogy does not follow because Tookie committed crime so he would not have to find an honest living. The illegal immigrants broke the law so that they could. I am not saying they don’t deserve to be sent back. The Law is clear about that, but given the circumstances under which they broke the law and considering the other pragmatic factors I noted in my last comment (namely the contributions they do make to the economy) and considering the logistical problems associated with rounding up 11, million people and returning them to there country of origin, I can say “let them stay”, and still feel fine about it as a Christian.

I am not excusing, or offering absolution. Those found guilty of other crimes while here should, be deported, and not allowed back. Back taxes should be paid. Firm dates for there departure should be set (assuming there status is guest worker) And any seeking permanment residency should leave and re-enter through normal channels.

You are correct, the US is not obliged to take care ever “tired, poor and huddled mass” that wonders across our borders, but to the extent that they are here, and for the reason they are here, we can give them a break.

“The illegal immigrants broke the law so that they could.”

By definition, an illegal immigrant is someone who has cross the line (pardon the pun) of a certain set of boundaries. Regardless of the reason, this person is a law breaker and needs to be treated accordingly. If someone were to break into my house and lay in one of my kid’s bed –and there reason was because they wanted to keep warm, they will see my brand of MERCY.

Your Tookie analogy does not follow because Tookie committed crime so he would not have to find an honest living

If you were to listen to his supporters, he was “forced” into a life of crime because the racist American system kept Negroes like him out of it. Again, “mercy” becomes realative in his case.

Realistically, I do not think that it is possible to hunt down every illegal person here in the US and deport them. My opinion is that we should “plug up” this leaky faucet (known as the border), put the remaining illegals on a plan that has them paying taxes while they are here, and most importantly, like any other person who want citizenship, put them through a background check. Until that is done, there is no argument out there that can convince me that poor edcation our kids are getting out here in CA should be considered as a “greater good” sacrifice.

If you were to listen to his supporters, he was “forced†into a life of crime because the racist American system kept Negroes like him out of it.

I never believed such drivel. I don’t think you do either. I am surprised that you referenced it.

My opinion is that we should “plug up†this leaky faucet (known as the border), put the remaining illegals on a plan that has them paying taxes while they are here, and most importantly, like any other person who want citizenship, put them through a background check.

on this you and I agree. And once they have status. They can be tracked and taxed, and most of the negatives of having them here will no longer exist.

Oh we can find them if we choose to. The problem with illegal immigration lays at the feet of the employers. How many times have you gone into a restaurant and the bus boy doesn’t speak English. How many of the migrant workers of farms are illegal. If you fine some of these employers then you restrict the immigrants ability to work. Just like with the war on drugs aim at the right targets and the problem will be fixed.

Oh I’m sorry I didn’t stay on topic. Here is the thing. It is God that shows grace and mercy. The Ameican government is not God nor is it Christian.

Saudia,

Because God showed us (Christians) mercy, he expect us to show mercy also. Being that The US has a government of, by and for the people it is WELL within its capacity to to show mercy AS A NATION if it is the will of its people. And I as a person and citizen of this Nation can support this mercy without compromise to, and I will dare say because of, my Christian beliefs.

I like how you put Christians in parenthesis as though God has only shown mercy to Christians. Anyway, I digress. The government is just that the government. It should enforce the laws that it has and create new laws to protect us. Mercy is not in the equation. If the government is so merciful then let’s open the doors of the prisons if they all say they are sorry.

I like how you put Christians in parenthesis as though God has only shown mercy to Christians. Anyway, I digress. The government is just that the government. It should enforce the laws that it has and create new laws to protect us. Mercy is not in the equation. If the government is so merciful then let’s open the doors of the prisons if they all say they are sorry. Now that is what I call mercy

I like how you put Christians in parenthesis as though God has only shown mercy to Christians.

In general God shows mercy everyone. The sunshines, and the rains fall on the just and unjust. We all benefit from some form of God’s mercy. But when I speak of the mercy that God has shown the Christian, it is the mercy of salvation. Anyway my emphasis on the word Christians was to highlight what perspective I was coming from. Not to say that God shows no mercy to anyone else.

It should enforce the laws that it has and create new laws to protect us. Mercy is not in the equation.

That is absolutely NOT so. The Government shows mercy all the time. You never got off from a speeding ticket with just a warning? That’s mercy. Parole is mercy. Ever file your taxes late, even by one day ? I have. IRS never came down on me, they didn’t even mention it. That’s mercy. I would hate to live in a country that was devoid of mercy. Sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes people have mitigating circumstances (I think thats a legal term). I will even go as far to say that you can not even have a just society unless that society practices mercy.

If we as people have a capacity for mercy, than a Government by, for and OF the people should have that same capacity. Within reason.

George Mathalier is a 52 year old man. His family brought him the the U.S. from Haiti when he was 10. He didn’t become a citizen but this country has been his home. He’s a mason by trade. His family’s here; some have businesses.
Well he was caught with some drugs in his car a while back. He says that he actually was never convicted. One another note- he is diabetic with serious allergy problems.
Well he is in the process of being deported from INS detention to Haiti on the basis of “moral turpitude.” Haiti will put him in jail without medicine or food.
I am a spiritual advisor assisting my Parish priest and I visit him. Now maybe I don’t know the full story, but in any case this plan by the INS, this federal policy, is simply barbaric.
Have we learned anything from how we’ve treated the Indians, black people, Japanese during WW2? Doesn’t the Declaration of Independence say all men are created equal? Not just all citizens! Now illegal immigration is wrong, but there are humane ways of addressing it.
Nowadays the “big” false worry is how to preserve “my” nice big piece of the pie (which non-citizens are cutting into). But the real concern in this matter is actually how we will answer our Lord Jesus Christ before His Judgement Seat how we treated strangers, the sick, poor people, even our enemies. On that day we will bitterly regret “shock and awe” and putting luxurious living ahead of how we treat the most vulnerable who are at our mercy.
This all of course is in the Holy Scriptures.

Okay, so this guy came to this country illegally, was caught with drug possession, and he happens to be a diabetic. America deported him because of his illegal status and HAITI places him in jail without medicine or food.

Soooooo, how is America at fault here?

As for the rest of your comment, man, save the sermon for the Vatican (which btw) has LEGAL borders they expect the world to respect. At the same time they wag their finger at America for simply enforcing their own laws.

Read up on how Mexico treats its illegals and compare it to the free healthcare, free education, affordable housing, employment they get here in the US.

You sound like you have a good heart, but man. I think you really need to look at the entire picture

I don’t think he came here illegally; otherwise the other members of the family would be in detention as well.
What really is bothering me is that we would deport people, including my friend George in York, PA County Prison to a place where no food or medicine is given. Its not humane.

I don’t think he came here illegally; otherwise the other members of the family would be in detention as well.

Then perhaps you never lived in California (LOL).

You said earlier that he has been in this country when he was 10, but never became a citizen.

What really is bothering me is that we would deport people, including my friend George in York, PA County Prison to a place where no food or medicine is given. Its not humane.

From the way it sounds, your friend had years to straighten out his citizenship status to avoid this unfortunate mess he is in now. Was there a reason for this?

I don’t know. People don’t realize sometimes the ultimate consequences of their decisions until a crisis is upon them. It’s easy to say what should have been done. I wouldn’t grill a person about what can’t be changed.
No food, no water in Haitian jails.
“All men are created equal.” Anybody got a pair of scissors to lend our judges so they won’t have to explain those words away?
I really don’t want to keep trying to defend decisions that justify sending people into these situations. The American ideals I was taught are compromised- I’m disillusioned.
Obama means well, but he’s not my Savior- Jesus is. And if one walks with Him one will also be crucified- and raised from the dead. It’s just knocks the wind out of me to see the American government doing the crucifying.
Here’s a website on the horrors of Haitian deportation: ALTERNATIVE CHANCE/CHANS ALTENATIV http://alternativechance.org/

I wouldn’t grill a person about what can’t be changed.

This is not about grilling someone over what cannot be changed, this is about pointing out what could have been easily prevented. Your friend and his family had roughly 42 (forty-two) years to legalize his status here in the US, but for whatever reason he chose not to. Other than the mentally-disturbed, people are quite aware of those laws and consciously make the decision whether or not they are going to abide by them. When those laws are violated, there are consequences. The same rule of thumb applies to ANY nation on the planet. So why you feel as though America is at fault for enforcing its own laws is beyond me.

Another thing worth thinking about here is that for every slot your friend ‘took up’ (so to speak) in the job market, there were many more legal poor Americans who could not fill that space to support their own families. There were two examples of this where legal low-income Americans were able to find work thanks to the removal of illegals from these plants (here are one of those examples).

If we are really wanting to cast stones here, let’s put the governments of countries like Haiti and Mexico in our sights. These governments have for years been raping their own people all while they themselves are living off the fat of the land and American handouts. You would think these government leaders would be embarrassed to see that their own citizens have to rely on the good graces of another country. Instead, they feel entitled.

Despite our imperfections, America has for years have given folks all around the globe a second chance either here or in their place of origin. This is a tradition deeply rooted in our culture and continues to this day. At some point we have to start demanding these own countries begin to pull their own weight. To ignore this is by default, bigotry.

Yes, what you say is true, as far as it goes. The US is technically not starving and dehydrating George Mathelier, its a Haitian decision; Haiti is dysfunctional, and the people there are largely responsible for it.
And we can’t save Iraq, much less Haiti. Everything about the decision to deport George is technically sound, according to current U.S. policy. But it is merciless. They are sending a man to his death for a misdemeanor. It was not a felony. And he was not convicted.
And if you dig into the treatment of immigrants by the INS you will find a multitude of merciless decisions separating families and sending people into hellholes.
And you’ve reinforced what I said about how America has changed. We’re fearful, protective of our privileges (which we see slipping from our grasp), less welcoming of others.
If all men are created equal (that includes illegal immigrants!) they are all entitled to humane treatment. You have to close your eyes to call our current policies humane treatment. People who have been here for many years are being detained indefinitely and deported on technicalities. Yes, this creates more jobs for citizens, but at the price of breaking up families. And, I would mention that the private companies our government contracts INS detention out to are making a bundle on it. They are paid to keep people as long as possible in their grasp. This is more than just a detainee point of view. I’ve read in the statements of these companies. Its an ugly business- trading in human flesh.
We are wealthy; even in a recession, we are wealthy, in comparison with much of the world. But we like our generous slice of the pie; none of us wants a smaller piece. But we have to close our eyes to the fact that others are not in a position to survive outside this land of Apple Pie in order to maintain that generous piece.
This is why Jesus call us to faith and love, relinquishment and sacrifice, the narrow way. And few take that way. Can a civil society take that way. No; each of us has to make the decision for ourselves, to undertake to live that Life as much as their faith allows them to.
Sorry, I can’t be proud of how America is treating the people I have met in INS detention in York, PA. Especially George Mathelier.
The national park service site for the Statue of Liberty makes no mention of these words carved on the inside of the statue:

“Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Its no longer our policy.

But it is merciless.

I understand that this is your friend and therefore you have an emotional stake in this situation. But the truth here is that he was extended 42 (forty-two) years of “mercy”.

If all men are created equal (that includes illegal immigrants!) they are all entitled to humane treatment.

You are right. Now communicate that message to Haiti. America has done its job.

Yes, this creates more jobs for citizens, but at the price of breaking up families.

Again, people who come here illegally and have children CHOOSE to set up their own fate when they do not abide by the law. If you and I can abide by the law, but yet we assume poor immigrants LACK that same basic ability, we are in effect expressing bigotry. When we assume that nations like Haiti lack the ability to govern its own people all while we pridefully say to ourselves “America knows best”, we are treating these folks as second class humans.

Haiti doesn’t want these deportees. We are forcing the situation. We could grant TPS (temporary protected status) to Haitians but we won’t. They have been devastated by storms this year and are still picking themselves up. We stopped deporting for 3 months but couldn’t wait until they gave the go-ahead. Other countries have this status; so could Haiti. The situation calls for it.
As far as the job America is doing with people of foreign origin, consider the cases of Khaled el-Masri and Maher Arar. Without evidence we grab them and whisk them off to Syria to be tortured. When it became evident they knew nothing of terrorism, they were released after a year of torture. They were German and Canadian citizens, but we did not respect their sovereignty. El-Masri was grabbed in Germany, and Arar at JFK on a stopover on the way to Canada. We want our border and citizens and interests respected, but we do not extend that respect to others in Germany, Canada, Haiti. And those countries notice these things; the whole world notices. And God sees.
One hopes for better with Obama. We’ll see.

Haiti doesn’t want these deportees. We are forcing the situation. We could grant TPS (temporary protected status) to Haitians but we won’t.

Again, you are ignoring the fact that we have taken in MANY Haitians into this country–just like all other groups. The storms were only a recent situation that apparently affects the situation your friend is in now. This tells me that much of this is being based on your friend and not history. Also, let’s not forget that anytime America has intervened to bring stability in that country, they are accused by members of congress and activists of being racist and imperialistic. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

According to you, Haiti is the one who has thrown him in prison without food or medicine. On the flip side, America gave him:

#42 years to legalize his status
#an opportunity to empower himself economically
#Free education
and the space to raise a family

And America is at fault?????

You may have, effectively, the last word here, Duane.
All I would say is that I am against illegal immigration- if its to be done, let them do it legally. But when sincere efforts to do it right are knocked down by technicalities by the government, as in cases I have come to know but cannot explain very well due to the complexity of them, well, I question the goodwill of our policies. And I’m talking of cases other than George Mathelier’s.
And I would expect humane treatment of illegals, and an expansive interpretation of the Conventions Against Torture. (CAT)- which forbids sending people to certain torture or life-threatening situations.
And I don’t think we have that under the current administration, which most of us are anxiously waiting to hit the road.
That’s all I have to say.

Legalism is what is killing Christianity. It unfortunately has turned into what whe should and should not do. Jesus did not come and die so that we could have a bunch of rules to live by. The issue with Mexico has been going on for so long and since we have been so lax with it over the years (cuz we make so much money exploiting them) there are strong family bonds between the U.S. and Mexico, meaning there are generations of illegals living here. I used to live on the border. The U.S. is going to exploit this issue to make money just like it’s war on drugs that is going no where. Seriously, don’t you think that if the U.S. wanted to secure that border that we could? Of course we could, but, as I have stated there is MONEY to be made by the “illegal immigration”. Have you ever seen what kind of ridiculous hoops and money these poor immigrants have to go through to be a citizen? If we REALLY wanted to solve the illegal immigration problem we would have an immigration office right at the border where they can get assistance to become a U.S. citizen. Anyone interested in that? NO. It’s all about greed, greed and more greed. And besides the only people that really have a cause to complain are the Indians, all the rest of us are immigrants.